Overlining (and underlining) fly rods

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    Posted: 16 Apr 2014 at 8:53am
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The NE wind is keeping me indoors, thankfully the trevally fishing may be good when this latest puff goes away and I can get out on the water again.

Got me thinking, who overlines their fly rod here? Or underlines their rod. I know one 9wt rod I am currently using prefers an 8wt line.

I just hitched up a 11wt Rio outbound floating line to a 10wt Reddington Vapen red rod, and it throws that line like a rocket (lovely rod btw).

Just seems to be a matter of trying different combinations until something "fits" as the manufacturers standards are often in different ball parks.

Anyone else have similar examples?

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote desmofrankie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 2014 at 2:07pm
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Here is hope for the trev fishing to be good too Smile

I had my #7 (TFO bvk) overlined with a heavy 8wt (pike line so slightly heavier than the rating) until recently when I put a regular 7 on it...
As much as I liked more the previous line to use from the kayak (it was easy to cast with very little line out) it was making my rod absolutely awful to cast with a sinking polyleader (sounds obvious: over line + heavy leader= heaps too much weight) so I wouldn't over line anymore just to be able to keep that little adaptability...

On the other hand my previous rod was a Ross 7/8wt which came with a 7wt line on it.
I hated the rod with passion until a guy in a shop convinced me to put that above-mentioned 8wt line on; I felt like I had bought a new rod!
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fraser Hocks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr 2014 at 9:52am
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Plenty of rods that I either overline or underline all the time. Iv got two CD ICT rods that I overline every time. Sometimes by 2 weights (3# to a 5# and a 4# to a 6#).  Tried them with there "correct" line weight and felt like I was trying to throw knitting wool.

Line / Rod weight is quite a subjective thing anyway. For many years iv said that rods should be marked with line weight envelope that they will take and then buy a line by weight (grains grams etc...) Make a lot more sense. That way you can choose a line to suit the way you would like the rod to cast? Down side is that it makes an already complex sport even more complex for newbies?

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Xtoad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr 2014 at 12:12pm
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My 20wt CTS is underlined with a 16wt monic because they don't make a line that heavy.
Not a casting machine anyway...
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Ahab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2014 at 9:19pm
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Hell's teeth- a 20WT. What on earth are you after with that, xtoad? I guess marlins?

I'm tooling around with my kingi gear now. Am looking to overline my 12WT rod with a 14WT Rio Intermediate. However, I'll also take my 15WT rods and see if they can chuck it OK. One of them did fine on a 14WT shooting head that I have.

Any thoughts on the upper end of the scale, fellers?


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Post Options Post Options   Likes (1) Likes(1)   Quote Fraser Hocks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2014 at 11:16pm
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Originally posted by Ahab Ahab wrote:

Any thoughts on the upper end of the scale, fellers?


Yep.... that is that once you go over a 12# its a sign you have lost your mind.LOL   With a single handed rod almost no one has the wrist strength to cast a rod over that weight, and those that do get them soon come to the realization that you cant apply any more pressure to a fish in battle, than you can with a 12#.  

Basically if your going to chase a fish that you think a 12# isn't enough to successfully capture it, then you need to swap to conventional tackle to get the job done.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote William Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2014 at 2:33am
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Originally posted by Fraser Hocks Fraser Hocks wrote:

Yep.... that is that once you go over a 12# its a sign you have lost your mind.


Where is the like button?!    A 12wt is a damn big rod when paired with a reel that can put the brakes on!   
And in any case todays 11wt is probably the new 12wt since lines have been getting heavier and rods more powerful. Sage has lead the pack introducing the Salt which is actually optimised for "today’s heavier fly lines".
http://www.sageflyfish.com/blog/06/2014/offering-saltwater-anglers-salt/
So now you can overline without being seen to be overlining        

Jokes aside my new ceiling for anything involving proper casting is an 11wt. I have an xi3 11wt that loves a standard 11wt line but it'll also wallop out an "older" 12wt line with ease.

I used to be vehemently opposed to using anything other than rated line on a rod - it was a "faith based" thing to honour the integrity of the rod designer. But line manufactures have muddied the waters with all sorts of lines that don't fit into the old standards involving just the weight of the front 30 feet. Nowadays some people carry 70 feet in the air before the final shoot. Or 20 feet carry and flop the flashy profile to Mr Stickface. Shooting heads take us into a new paradigm where finding optimum load involves starting about two and half times heavier and using casting trials to gradually cut the length of the head till it goes well enough i.e. not relying simply on grain weight written on the box.

Nowadays I don't trust the number painted on a rod quite as much. It's with an open mind that I try a variety of lines on my rods. A bit of "tinkering" I've come to enjoy doing. Some rods I've found will go well underlined when distance is needed. I've also found a few combinations where overlining does a better job, especially when the fishing is all close range. Nothing revolutionary in any of that. The surprises come when two different 7wt rated lines perform completely differently on the same 7wt rod. Taper info is a clue although nothing but patient trial an error will resolve these types of conflicts. The game has become very complicated especially with fast tippy rods that have a particular sweet spot for launching a long shot.

Another part of the solution is to try out some rods brands/ranges that have shifted away from the ultra fast taper paradigm - look for rods designed to perform well at any range from short to long with the same line (obviously you'll need a standard line with a longish belly and longish back taper i.e. not an Outbound Short designed to be used similar to a shooting head).

My Sage One 5wt has a remarkably broad range of sweet spot - or should I say "sweet slot" because it's longer. The LOOP Cross S1 rods with their smooth medium fast action that I cast recently thanks to Gavin Davis made me think really hard about my current fetish for faster rods. It's quite a sensational feeling to have a responsive casting tool that is not only sensitive but mechanically effortless and smooth from close in to max distance.

I think my faster tapered rods will gradually find themselves effectively overlined with shooting heads or Outbound Short style lines. I can see my rod quiver growing with more general purpose rods that don't need to be under or overlined to improve casting or increase their capability.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote FishMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2014 at 4:57am
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I kinda disagree with the statement that fly fishing ends at a 12 because it is hard to cast anything larger. I used to be able to cast my 8'6" 14wt just fine. Also, when loaded with fast sinking heavy grain line it was a great boat rod. Sure, lots of water hauling involved, short shoots and lots of line sinking, sometimes even no casting at all, but it was still fly fishing.

It's a bit of a world of its own that sort of fishing. Can be a whole lot of fun.

We certainly needed 14wt plus rods for that night-time GT fishing in Aitutaki in September.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote corokid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2014 at 6:54am
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Same Same
Can cast my Xi3 12 weight ok , probably just as far as any other rod , not something you want to cast all day mind you, or when you  have a popper fly the size of a small game lure and Itu's brother says'' GT CAST'' while he is standing right under your casting shoulder.
Before I had a matching weight line I was using an 11 weight floater with sink tip which seemed to seemed to match rod ok.

I know its all about technique but I will suggest a bit of body conditioning does not go astray as you get up in the 12 plus range. Standard wrist curls plus my variation holding a light dumbbell like a rod handle and flexing back and forward as if you were unlocking and locking wrist , doing a few stretches of the same tendons used. Probably a bit over the top but if it improves endurance and prevents fatigue , injury gotta be good.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Ahab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2014 at 8:01am
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Originally posted by Fraser Hocks Fraser Hocks wrote:

Yep.... that is that once you go over a 12# its a sign you have lost your mind.LOL   With a single handed rod almost no one has the wrist strength to cast a rod over that weight, and those that do get them soon come to the realization that you cant apply any more pressure to a fish in battle, than you can with a 12#.  

Interesting, Fraser. My 15WTs cast far enough for my needs (15m or so). My big fish angling is fairly specialised and simplififed, as it's a matter of fishing for snapper until a king comes along, then flopping a fly on his snout. 


However, the part about not being able to apply any more pressure is a new one to me. The rods I have certainly feel like they have a lot of grunt. 






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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote corokid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2014 at 8:19am
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Higher rating the rod , heavier line means you can turn over bigger flies .
Not sure about the pressure thing myself as to maximise effort you will virtually be pointing rod at fish, mind you that can still put extreme load on butt of the blank even though only slightly bent.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fraser Hocks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2014 at 12:36pm
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Each to there I suppose? 
Iv tried going heavier than 12# rods but found that the actual pressure you could put on a fish with anything over a 12# was only a fraction more than you can apply with a 12# and pointing the rod at the fish, which is pretty much what your going to do with a fish that requires a 12# or over.
 
 
Iv seen mate after mate, build insanely heavy fly rods to try to tackle leviathan's of the deep.  All they end up doing is selling the outfit later to buy a suitable conventional outfit for that fish after coming to the same realisation as I did.
 
Hey but don't let me put anyone of giving it a go.  Some things you have to do for yourself, no matter how much someone says isn't not the way to go.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Ahab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2014 at 9:08pm
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Interesting, Fraser. I'll see how I go. I almost had the chance to test mine on a king today, but he didn't hook up (and was only a wee chap anyway). I did catch a seagull through the neck, and the 15WT got him in very quickly for a peck and release.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Ahab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2014 at 9:21pm
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Originally posted by Fraser Hocks Fraser Hocks wrote:

the actual pressure you could put on a fish with anything over a 12# was only a fraction more than you can apply with a 12# and pointing the rod at the fish, which is pretty much what your going to do with a fish that requires a 12# or over.

Could you explain this to me a bit more, Fraser? Does this mean that you're playing the fish straight off the reel like a winch? In the vids I've seen of GT fishing, it seems like this. The rod becomes a stick for pointing directly at the fish. This is a departure from my background in conventional fishing.

I need a rod with some real backbone to lift the fish out of the weeds at the end of the fight. This is crucial, as the kings take in close, then run straight out over kelp and onto sand, where I can wear them down. Then I work them closer once they're flagging, and they try and dive/collapse into the weeds. I think the 15WTs should be well suited to this stage of the fight.

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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote ReelFly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2014 at 9:50pm
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not sure its as simple as under or overlining. its different for every type or line type and manufacture.
My 8wt rod I think Rio Outbound Short in an 8wt is probably a bit heavy and it really slows down the action, where as the Rio General purpose 8wt is maybe on the lite side. finding the perfect line could end up and expensive process though seeing as you can't exactly try them all.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Fraser Hocks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2014 at 10:42pm
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Originally posted by Ahab Ahab wrote:

Could you explain this to me a bit more, Fraser? Does this mean that you're playing the fish straight off the reel like a winch?
 

Yea pretty much mate.  You have to consider that a 9' long rod is a hell of a leaver, and once you have an big angry fish on the end you struggle to hold it up against the load.   By comparison to using conventional tackle you will notice that's its pretty hard to pump and wind a fish with a flyrod?  Not to say it cant be done, but nothing like you can with modern conventional tackle. 

My thoughts would be that Frank may be onto something with the idea of considerably shorter rods.  Sure you cant cast very far with them, but once you get to those kind of weight rods (over 12#) your probably not going to cast very far anyway, and it sounds like your willing to accept that Tom!Thumbs Up

Old Max Garth (RIP) used to go on and on about using spin rods and converting them to flyrods for the purpose.  I seem to remember that he said a Shimano Starlo Stix rod makes a great heavy weight flyrod? I think these rods are 7' to 7'6" long.  Like a short stroker flyrodLOL
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