Eyes on Flies

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    Posted: 25 Jul 2006 at 7:28pm
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Not sure if this should be posted in the fly tying section, but I guess it's not a pattern, so here goes.
 
I had a very interesting conversation today with a very good fly tyer and the topic of discussion was whether eyes on flies were really necessary and if they were indeed triggers for strikes. Are the eyes purely aesthetic or do they trigger a predatory instinct.
 
I personally have a very strong leaning towards using eyes on my flies, whether they be prismatic eyes the size of 10 cent coins or smaller ones used in the dumbbell design heads on some flies.
There is the theory that salt water flyfishing needn't match the hatch per se as much as the fresh water counterparts, but I'm inclined to make the patterns closely resemble the bait fish as much as possible with a few exceptions tied in.
 
To be fair, I have caught fish using flies with and without eyes - Interested to hear thoughts or comments on this one and your rationale behind the thinking.
 
Kev
 
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Kev,

I'm all for eyes on flys particularly on flys such as surf candies or those aimed at representing smaller transparent baitfish . I think a prominent eye on these flies are an important trigger. However I would be interested to compare catch rates of a deciever with no eyes compared to one with them and I suspect there would be little difference.

For flys such as clousers, gotchas etc that use dumbell eyes I think the eye painted on the dumbell is of no importance and you can get away using dumbells without painted eyes. Its the action the dumbell creates thats does it for the fish. I generally tie clousers with painted dumbells because I think they look better, but I dont think it matters to the fish.

I think its pattern dependant and on some flys the eyes are important triggers and on others less so.

Cheers
Mat
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Hi Kev still learning as you know, my experience thus far has me see that so far especially on Kings I have not been able thus far to detect a preference for or without eyes. I have tied some pretty manky looking flies but sort of crudely similar to the comono special, but without the eyes.They don't seem to give a rats ass about the eyes but more the materials used, so far the really flowing materials seem to work the best and continue to outfish other patterns )of course this may reflect the way I am using them), also and again only what I have observed they don't seem to be really switched on by flies that contain a lot of sparkly stuff, fish are still being caught but no where near the rate as the flies with less. As for other species almost all my snapper, trevally, have been caught with patterns with some sort of eye, I did however trial a new fly based on a pattern that you sent me and this had no eye and I caught a PB snapper so again I'm not sure as I didn't catch multiple snapper that day. In summing up I feel in my case I sort of like to see the eyes as it makes me feel better about the fly I'm using, however the results to date would suggest otherwise...

those are my thoughts all the best Kev
Lionel
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Jaapie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2006 at 12:49am
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Good comments Matty....
 
Thanks mate. I think I am in agreement with you with regards to the small baitfish patterns, as the eye is disproportionate (size wise) to other factors in the fish, and I think you are right that this is a trigger.
 
Interesting that you mention the Deceiver, as this is exactly what I have found over the years. I have just tied up a dozen BIG FPF's flies (12 inches plus) and am in the process of either adding eyes or not. I think I will lean towards giving them sight though...... kinda finishes them in some respects. I have also found the epoxy 'soaks' into the head area and binds the thread that holds the whole thing together. Bit of extra insurance I guess.
 
Only thing is working with the dreaded epoxy again Nuke... although there is a new product apparantly available in the States that I just heard about that uses ultra violet light to set the 'glue'. No mess, quick and you choose how quickly you want the stuff to set. Might have to look into this as I loathe working with epoxy!
 
Again I think you are spot on with regards to the dumbbells and the action they impart to the fly is more important than the finely painted eyes we spend hours doing.
Thanks mate....
 
___________________________________________________________
 
Lionel,
 
Well done on the PB snapper. Way to go mate!
 
Thanks for the input as well. I find it fascinating that the kings shy away from a gaudy fly.......similar to human beings I guess in some ways. (Just out of curiosity, is the water crystal clear where this is happening, or does this not factor into the equation). I think one of the flies I sent to you actually had the eyes destroyed off the fly on the day I was fishing, and it still caught snapper hand over fist.
 
There is an interesting correlation in what you say and what Matt has mentioned and I think action is of paramount importance. This relates to materials used, but I guess every good tyer knows this Wink.
 
Thanks too for the comments and good luck mate.
 
Kev
 
___________________________________________________________
 
Further comments are welcomed as I would be interested to hear all opinions.
 
Thanks lads...
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Jaapie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2006 at 12:51am
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No idea why the size bar at the bottom has been activated......right pain in the bum to read ....
 
Sorry lads.
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Memorymaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2006 at 7:26am
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Hi Kev,
the water at White Island and the Volkners is normally pristine in terms of the other water I have available to fish in the Bay, it would be similar to water found further North literally everywhere on the East coast. The Kingfish don't nessessarily shy away from flashy profiles but seem to accept the less flashy profiles more readily, perserveering with just about any larger fly will get you a fish at some stage out there. The greener water inshore so far has shown me nothing different.
I have concidered the difference in water clarity, just have not been able to find an instance that has swayed me one way or the other yet..
Fish don't make mistakes
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I think this is a very interesting thread and it seems every post here carries the answer to a greater and lesser degree.

I am a big fan of eyes on flies for both reasons outlined... fish catching and aesthetics.

I believe, in the situations outlined by Matt in regards Surf candies imitating transparent bait fish they are a very important trigger. And I think we are essentially discussing triggers here and are Eyes a trigger?

In the most recent issue of Flylife Bob Wyatt has done a very interesting article on Triggers in relation to trout fishing that has caused some spirited discussions on other boards i frequent and I'd like to see that expand here as it is a pet subject of mine.
 
I have always been an advocate of the 'Supernormal releaser" theory founded in the UK and advocated by Jim Ring as outlined in Tony Orman's book "Trout with Nymph" as it relates to trout. In such simple creatures as fish the stimuli to strike need not be a complicated thing in fact often times a very simple trigger exaggerated to a degree of almost caricature is extremely effective. For instance in the initial studies of the releaser theory Pike and sticklebacks were used as the tester. The Pike had showed a definite preference for the pregnant females as a prey item and the releaser's for identifying them were isolated as being the swollen belly and the enlarged red/orange spot on the side of the pregnant females.
 
When presented with a simple block of wood that had an over sized belly and a disproportionately large spot the pike would hit the lure in preference to the natural alongside. (No eye... not a trigger) I always considered this fairly telling and it has influenced my fly tying over the years. I pointed this out in the thread i posted on tying the Cicada yesterday as that fly was designed to try and incorporate the three major triggers I had identified in the Cicada.
 
To bring this back to Saltwater.... When tying any imitation I try to identify the major trigger, or if possible, to include a number of triggers if it is possible to do so without diminishing or negating the major one. In terms of bait fish I have no doubt that in many instances the eye is the trigger, but usually a secondary trigger after action as pointed out by Matt. Only in those exceptional circumstances also pointed out by Matt would an eye become a primary trigger.
 
Tying freshwater bait fish imitations many years ago a knowledgeable US angler pointed out to me that when chasing smelt trout will always endeavor to hit the head. many of our streamer patterns lacked eyes and while many "short takes" were attempted to be remedied shortening the tail, we found that by including eyes on our smelt flies we completely eliminated short takes as the trout did, indeed, hit the head when it was made very easy to identify them. This is one of the reasons I believe Pat Swift's flies have been so popular in recent years as all of his smelt and harling patterns include eyes. That Pat is an experienced SWF angler (One the most experienced in NZ) shouldn't be lost on that point.
 
However, it is a case of identifying the various triggers in any given situation and Matt's point of the Clouser is a perfect one or Lionel's PB Snapper (Well done!Clap) where I believe the wounded bait fish action is the primary trigger. The lack of eyes probably won't put a fish off if other triggers are present. I put eyes on my Clousers because I think they look nice, but also because it may be a secondary trigger. While the absence of eyes may not deter a fish, the presence of eyes may incite a reluctant fish and if we are fishing blind we'll never know so including eyes gives me confidence.  In the case of the deceiver (Tutorial for that going up today) I think the bait fish shape and action is the primary trigger and while I don't believe eyes will necessarily increase the number of strikes they may increase the number of hookups as we experienced with trout.
 
As Lionel says, when fishing for Kingfish in a burley trail fish that become wary or not hot on the feed tend to avoid flash, and yet I have found fishing with Craig W and also on the Coromandel when fishing deeper to unsighted fish flash is lethal (Aka Anchovy Bomb). That fly also has no painted eye (until recentlyBig smile). Lionel correctly says that limited or no flash (As in deceiver or hair wing style) is the way to go with Kings in the burley usually and the long flowing action of flies like those mentioned is the main key or trigger, but I still include an eye because it may be a secondary trigger and it looks nice and it sure won't deter a fish from striking.
 
Then there are other flies like Shrimp or crab imitations that usually include monofilament eyes where I am absolutely certain are included for aesthetic reasons and are not a trigger at all. (The most popular crab imitation worldwide is the Merkin Crab which does not have eyes) I think, with those patterns they can be omitted completely without any detrimental effect on the fly at all The best big snapper fly I know of is the Draper's Snapper fly which is, essentially, a Burley fly. Obviously this has no need for eyes and has accounted for many snapper over 10 kgs for Mark from the rocks around the East Coast and this brings us back to the two very clearly defined elements of fly tying.  
 
Some tie flies for the simple purpose of creating a lure that will catch them a fish. There are others who tie flies as an art form or hobby in its own right and often fill in time spent away from the water enjoying their sport vicariously by tying flies. The two, while related, are quite different.
 
After 30 odd years as a fly fisherman I am still not sure if I tie flies because I fish or if I fish because I tie flies. I believe it might be the latter which highlights why i personally have a reluctance to pick up a bait rod. Flies, in themselves, are a passion for me so I tend to really tart mine up. If that isn't what rocks your boat, as long as the fly has clear triggers I don't think anyone should get too bent out of shape over eyes.
 
Clark
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Originally posted by Jaapie Jaapie wrote:

 
Only thing is working with the dreaded epoxy again Nuke... although there is a new product apparantly available in the States that I just heard about that uses ultra violet light to set the 'glue'. No mess, quick and you choose how quickly you want the stuff to set. Might have to look into this as I loathe working with epoxy!
 
 
 
You're right Kev, epoxy is awful to work with.
 
The new stuff you are talking about can be found here  http://www.wetahook.net/
 
It has been developed by these guys and has been thoroughly tested and endorsed by the Epoxy Dean himself Bob Popovic. It looks awesome. Epoxy flies wilm be much easier to do and the "casual" flytyier will find it much easier... now..  what do i do with my rottisserie???
 
I have my kit on the way...
 
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Jaapie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2006 at 11:03am
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Good response mate....thanks!

Good points raised and some interesting food for thought.
 
I know exactly what to do with the rottisserie.... skewer a chook/hunk of wild pork onto it and use it slowly rotating over a BBQ <insert drooling Homer Simpson in here> Smile
 
Let us know how the new 'epoxy' goes Clark. Be interested to hear the views. Sales pitch goes that the stuff stays clear over time. Definitely better for all tiers concerned.
 
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When we were on Xmas the guides had a strong preference for flies with eyes. I wonder clark, if a lot of those transparent or highly camouflaged shrimp style patterns benifit from eyes. I reckon they do. It could be the release trigger that makes them different from crabs? - where the release trigger (eyes staring back at the predator) might be the  more obvious claws or legs?

I think eyes now also give me more confidence in the fly that I am using and thats critical to my success.
 
Cool thread with many interesting points already!!!!
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Lionel
Have you swum any of those flies I sent through yet?
Are they a bit sparkly for what you are doing?
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I personally think that shrimp patterns (epoxy shrimp, ultra shrimp) with black mono eyes are important triggers on these patterns. They really are a distinguishing feature of the natural shrimp. I think they are probably less important on crab patterns where you have a unique shape to the pattern which is a distinguishing feature. As I said before, I think the painted eyes on say the gotcha however aren't the trigger. The importance of these are the action they give the fly and also the weight added to the pattern. I have tied up a heap of gotchas with silver lead dumbells, large black dumbells and dumbells with painted eyes and will experiment with them in Tahiti
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Post Options Post Options   Likes (0) Likes(0)   Quote Memorymaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2006 at 8:21pm
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HI Simon,
mate I havn't yet but are planning an assault to a spot called the 10 mile, there are thousands of nice Kings holding there at present, so I guess by the end of the weekend some pics with your flies stuck in a fish may appear..... (if I can stop them) Shocked
To me they look bloody awesome and should go well,
 
I agree with your comment Si on the eye thing making me feel better about the fly and thus fishing with more confidence.
A point of interest might be with lures 99% of marlin / tuna lures have some sort of eye painted or attatched inside the heads, and they look cool and catch fish,
but also cedar plugs take fish, as do film canisters and banana skins and jet heads, we also tow birds as teasers and mirror boards all are designed to trigger or attract attention I tend to agree with the trigger theory, when a truck load of skipjack are smashing up anchovie's you could throw about anything that faintly resembles the bait and it will get smashed, throw the same fly at solitary fish being a bit more selective or not in frenzy mode and it may be a different story, maybe the eyes have it maybe not...
at he end of the day it takes you 2 seconds to attatch some I guess so what the hey
Fish don't make mistakes
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I agree totally and meant to mention those Big game lures too... but then you are also correct about ceder Plugs.... That's the beauty of the sport of flyfishing.

 

The same as in trout fihsing, you might get him on a simple old hare and Copper, or it may require an extended body parachute dun.....

Such is the sport we pursue, and I often think we take it far more seriously than the fish and they are fighting for their lives....CryWinkLOLCryWinkLOLCryWinkLOLCryWinkLOLCryWinkLOLCryWinkLOLCryWinkLOLCryWinkLOLCryWinkLOL

Clark
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Simon and Matt, you have both fished places I haven't where shrimp imitations are more important than where I have so far fished. I will defer to your judgement on that as I am not really in a position to know to the degree you guys are. I reckon, in hindsight, it was an assumption I shouldn't have made,.
 
I reckon the only thing I can say there is that whe i go to CI or NC my shrimps will have eyes...Evil Smile
 
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I think I was probably agreeing with the what you had posted about supernormal realease theory Clark and just thought eyes on shrimp might have been the trigger? I've never used a purpose built shrimp either so I'm just pontificating!!!Big smileBig smile
Cry   I  defer to Matt on the gotchas etc and forgot that, of course the eyes would be in the sand!!Thumbs UpWacko
 
 
Heres something. Do fish strike at the eyes because we know fish generally can't swim backwards and a predator knows to go head first...just like we should net a fish. Going for the tail will often mean a miss? (Hence protection on some fish being the eye spot near the tail to confuse predators?)
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Heres a pic of gotcha and shrimp. I think this highlights the importance of the of the dark eyes on the natural. I used to use an epoxy shrimp pattern in oz alot in the esturaine systems. The silver trevally loved them. Haven't used one over here though. Might work on those krill feeding trevally that craig has written about.

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I'm sure it would... I will be posting a variant I use of Craig's Krill pattern soon. Reckon the Gotcha's could be very effective though.
 
Nice tie too.
 
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I haven't read the thread in it's entirety (I will when I get a little more time) but by absolute coincidence I fished my trout jigging set up off matata on saturday in 20m of water for terikihi for the first time and the Grey booby (with eyes) got nailed 70% of the time in comparrison to the streamer type fly (without eyes)
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